In the meantime I think it is fun to go over every character in the game and talk about my expected changes. I have no inside knowledge so this is going to be speculation with some snippets of stuff AMG has told us about in the interviews.
It's probably a good idea to have the Characters list open to see what some of the changes are.
Strap in, this will be a long one:
Characters (230)
Abomination (5)
No changes. He's perfect the way he is.
Adam Warlock (7)
No changes. It's pretty clear that his entire pack was designed with the new Stamina baseline in mind.
Agent Venom (4)
7/6 Stamina. It's going to be interesting if he is actually touched as he was already in last years update (just to clear up wording)
Amazing Spider-Man (5)
7/6 or maybe even 7/7 Stamina. ASM is tanky but I don't think him staying under the new 4 threat baseline is unlikely.
Ancient One (4)
7/6 Stamina.
Angel (3)
6/6 Stamina.
Angela (5)
No changes.
Ant-Man (3)
He either gets to keep Extracts in Tiny Form or can place them when dropping through transforming. 6/6 Stamina
Apocalypse (6)
His leadership is supposed to get a little nerf. No changes otherwise
Archangel (4)
6/7 Stamina
Arnim Zola (3)
Increase to 3 phyios defense.
Avalanche (3)
6/6 Stamina
Baron Helmut Zemo (4)
6/7 Stamina. Advance on the Spender looses the need to daze or KO.
Baron Mordo (3)
6/6 Stamina
Baron Strucker (3)
6/6 Stamina
Baron Zemo (3)
6/5 Stamina. Movement Speed M. Advance on Spender S. Master Swordsman once per Turn.
Bastion (4)
No changes
Beast (3)
6/6 Stamina
Beta Ray Bill (4)
7/6 Stamina
Bishop (4)
7/6 Stamina
Black Bolt (5)
No changes
Black Cat (3)
No changes (so keep her Stamina under the average to indirectly nerf her a bit)
Black Dwarf (4)
Replace Enforced Oblivion with Charge. 8/7 Stamina
Black Panther (4)
7/6 Stamina. Push on Builder gains a may. Mantle of the Black Panther is limited to one attack.
Black Panther, Chosen of Bast (3)
6/6 Stamina
Black Swan (4)
7/6 Stamina.
Black Widow (2)
No changes
Black Widow, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. (3)
Already updated
Blade (4)
7/6 Stamina. Katana can choose to be Physical
Blue Marvel (5)
No changes
Bob, Agent of Hydra (2)
No changes
Bullseye (2)
Already updated
Cable (5)
No changes
Captain America (Sam Wilson) (3)
6/6 Stamina.
Captain America (Steve Rogers) (4)
6/7 Stamina
Captain America, First Avenger (4)
7/6 Stamina
Captain Marvel (4)
7/6 Stamina
Captain Marvel, Cosmic Avenger (5)
No changes
Carnage (4)
Already updated
Cassandra Nova (5)
Already updated
Clea (3)
Already updated
Colossus (4)
Already updated
Corvus Glaive (4)
7/6 Stamina. 4/4/3 defenses
Cosmic Ghost Rider (6)
No changes
Crimson Dynamo (4)
6/7 Stamina
Crossbones (3)
M move. 6/6 Stamina
Crossbones, Merciless Merc (3)
M move. 6/6 Stamina
Crystal (3)
6/6 Stamina
Cyclops (4)
7/6 Stamina. Range restriction removed from the leadership.
Daredevil (4)
6/7 Stamina.
Darkstar (3)
6/6 Stamina. Additional Range 2, 5 dice Builder. Fully reworked Spender
Deadpool (3)
5/6 Stamina
Doc Ock, Sinister Scientist (4)
7/6 Stamina. Spender increases to 8 dice
Doctor Octopus (3)
6/6 Stamina
Doctor Strange (5)
Already updated
Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme (5)
Already updated (maybe increase to 7/6 Stamina)
Doctor Voodoo (4)
7/6 Stamina
Domino (3)
6/6 Stamina
Dormammu (8)
Already updated
Dracula (5)
No changes
Drax the Destroyer (3)
Headbutt reduced to 1 power
Ebony Maw (5)
No changes
Echo (3)
6/5 Stamina
Electro (4)
7/6 Stamina
Elektra (4)
Remove the Hand Ninja Grunts from her kit. Reduce to 3 threat. Updated abilities on Gainer and Spender to account for not having the Ninjas anymore.
Elsa Bloodstone (4)
7/6 Stamina
Emma Frost (4)
Already updated
Enchantress (4)
7/6 Stamina
Exodus (5)
No changes
Frankenstein‘s Monster (4)
Gainer changes to a Builder
Gambit (3)
Already updated (maybe 6/5 Stamina)
Gamora (4)
7/6 Stamina
Ghost Rider (5)
Flames of Hell Spender cost reduced to 1
Ghost-Spider (3)
6/6 Stamina
Gladiator (6)
No changes
Gorgon (3)
6/6 Stamina
Green Goblin (4)
7/6 Stamina. Glider Ram gains +1 collision damage
Groot (3)
Spender Range increased to 3 (that's just wishful thinking on my part to be honest)
Gwenom (4)
7/7 Stamina
Gwenpool (4)
7/6 Stamina. Travel through Gutter Space with Objective. Might be too much.
Hawkeye (3)
Already updated
Heimdall, The All-Seeing (3)
Already updated
Hela, Queen of Hel (4)
7/5 Stamina
Honey Badger (2)
No changes
Hood (3)
6/6 Stamina
Hulk (6)
Throw cost increased to 3
Hulkbuster (6)
Build to Take it timing changed to Modify Dice Step. 14 Stamina on Hulkbuster Side. 6 stamina and 3/3/3 Defenses on Tiny Tony Side. Rapid Fire trigger changed to Hit.
Iceman (3)
6/6 Stamina
Invincible Iron Man (4)
7/6 Stamina
Iron Fist (3)
6/6 Stamina
Iron Lad (3)
No changes
Iron Man (3)
6/6 Stamina
Iron Monger (3)
No changes (meaning he will be under the curve in terms of Stamina)
Jean Grey (5)
7/7 Stamina. Builder increased to 6 dice.
Jubilee (2)
No changes
Juggernaut (5)
No changes.
Kang the Conqueror (6)
No changes (though a few wouldn't hurt him)
Karnak (3)
6/6 Stamina.
Killmonger (4)
7/6 Stamina.
Killmonger, Usurper (4)
7/6 Stamina. Untamed Force gains an S Advance
King Black Bolt (6)
No changes
King T‘Challa (5)
Defender of Wakanda gets a once per turn limitation.
Kingpin (4)
No changes
Klaw (5)
Movement Speed increased to L (maybe too much)
Kraven the Hunter (3)
6/6 Stamina
Lady Mastermind (4)
7/6 Stamina
Lady Sif (4)
7/6 Stamina. Master Swordswoman gains a once per Turn limitation
Lizard (3)
6/6 Stamina
Lockjaw (3)
6/6 Stamina.
Logan, the Wolverine (4)
7/6 Stamina
Loki, God of Mischief (4)
6/7 Stamina
Loki, Prince of Lies (5)
No changes
Luke Cage (3)
6/6 Stamina
M.O.D.O.K. (5)
10/5 Stamina
M.O.D.O.K. Scientist Supreme (4)
7/6 Stamina. Throw increased to throwing M
Magik (3)
Already updated
Magneto (6)
Helmet innate superpower. Spender removed from his card. Maybe a new Spender similar to Master Punch on Black Bolt
Malekith The Accursed (7)
No changes
Man-Thing (3)
6/6 Stamina
Maverick (3)
6/6 Stamina
Maximus the Mad (4)
6/7 Stamina
Medusa (4)
7/6 Stamina. Flurry trigger on Hit Wild. Spender decreased to 4 power
Mephisto, Lord of Temptation (5)
No changes
Mister Sinister (4)
Fully rework for the mini Spender and the big Spender. Changing how the Genetic Samples work. Hopefully they keep the "Bow"
Really looking forward to his update as I would love to get him on the table a lot more.
Moon Knight (3)
6/6 Stamina
Moondragon (3)
No changes
Ms. Marvel (3)
6/6 Stamina and hopefully a change in her transform mechanic to allow us to use the much cooler Embiggend model more than 15 seconds in a game.
Mysterio (3)
M movement. 6/6 Stamina
Mystique (3)
6/6 Stamina
M‘Baku (4)
7/7 Stamina
Namor, the Sub-Mariner (5)
Charismatic Leader changed to Strategic Genius (to kill the Double Bubble).
Nebula (2)
No changes
Nick Fury (4)
Already updated
Nick Fury & The Howling Commandos (3)
6/6 Stamina
Nightcrawler (4)
6/6 Stamina
Nimrod, the Hunter (5)
No changes
Nova (5)
No changes
N‘Kantu, the Living Mummy (3)
6/5 Stamina (he's super tanky already and they might feel like 6/6 would be too much for him 🤔)
Okoye (2)
No changes
Omega Red (4)
Here we know that Shick said Omega Red would get a small but meaningful buff. Is it going to be movement Speed M?
Also the Absorb Essence Wild Trigger on the Spender should work per Wild not just once.
Death Factor should only cause 1 self damage which would be further helped by 7/6 Stamina overall. I'm excited to get this fantastic sculpt back on the table, so let's hope it turns out good!
Omega Sentinel (4)
No changes
Phoenix (6)
Some change to the Phoenix tokens. Maybe loosing the tokens when forced to transform could be enough.
Prime Sentinel (3)
No changes
Prime Sentinel (3)
No changes
Professor X (4)
Already updated (sadly as he's an incredible boring model to play with a fantastic leadership)
Prowler (4)
7/6 Stamina
Proxima Midnight (3)
6/6 Stamina
Psylocke (4)
Already updated
Punisher (3)
6/6 Stamina
Pyro (3)
6/6 Stamina
Quasar (4)
No changes
Quicksilver (3)
6/6 Stamina
Red Guardian (3)
6/6 Stamina
Red Skull (4)
7/6 Stamina. Power cost of Cosmic Blast removed
Red Skull, Master of Hydra (5)
No changes. Maybe the Hydra Grunts will be changed to not be able to contest Secures anymore or maybe always count as injured
Red Skull, Master of the World (4)
7/6 Stamina
Rescue (3)
6/6 Stamina
Rhino (4)
7/7 Stamina
Rocket Raccoon (2)
How dare you suggest that Rocket isn't dast perfect already?!
Rogue (4)
7/6 Stamina
Ronan the Accuser (4)
4 physical defense. Maybe Universal Weapon becomes a Gainer but that might be too much
Ronin (4)
7/6 Stamina
Sabretooth (4)
7/7 Stamina
Sabretooth, Apex Predator (4)
7/7 Stamina. Primal Pounce gains +1 collision damage. Stop Squealing and Die reduced to 3 Power
Sandman (4)
7/7 Stamina. First Construct is free to bring out after dazing
Scarlet Spider (4)
6/6 Stamina
Scarlet Witch (5)
Spender decreased to 4 power. Telekinesis can throw characters
Sentinel MK4 (4)
Already updated
Sentinel MK4 (4)
Already updated, though two different artworks to be able to differentiate would have been helpful.
Sentinel Prime MK4 (5)
Already updated
Shadow King (5)
I don't know. Arguably the very best sculpt in the game, Shadow King needs a big overhaul to make him an actual option on the table.
Maybe Force Projection is not an action anymore and that is enough but I'm not sure.
Shadowcat (3)
6/6 Stamina. Wall crawler?
Shadowland Daredevil (4)
7/7 Stamina. There is Only the Beast superpower on injured side reduced to 2 power.
Shang-Chi (4)
6/6 Stamina. One-Inch-Punch reduced to Range 1 (this is confirmed) and looses the Stun (this is just what I hope).
She-Hulk (6)
10/10 Stamina (confirmed). 4 physical defense (I hope)
Shocker (3)
6/6 Stamina
Shuri (3)
6/6 Stamina
Silk (4)
6/6 Stamina
Silver Sable (4)
6/7 Stamina
Sin (3)
6/6 Stamina. Spender decreased to 3 Power and increased to 7 dice. Timing on the leadership changed to Asset drop part first and push part second (so you don't deny yourself the chance to get an Asset drop by pushing first)
Skurge, The Executioner (3)
6/6 Stamina
Spectacular Spider-Man (3)
6/5 Stamina
Spectrum (4)
No changes
Spider-Ham (2)
No changes
Spider-Man (Peter Parker) (4)
7/6 Stamina
Spider-Man (Miles Morales) (3)
6/5 Stamina
Spider-Man 2099 (5)
No changes
Spider-Man Noir (3)
6/5 Stamina
Spider-Woman (4)
6/6 Stamina
Squirrel Girl (4)
7/6 Stamina
Star-Lord (3)
Already updated
Steve Rogers, Captain America (4)
7/6 Stamina. I Can Do This All Day on the injured side
Storm (3)
6/6 Stamina
Sunspot (4)
7/6 Stamina
Supergiant (3)
Movement Speed M. 6/6 Stamina. Spender cost reduced to 4 power (or completely reworked)
Taskmaster (3)
6/6 Stamina
Thanos, The Mad Titan (6)
Leadership allows all allied Black Order characters to use Gems for free not just Thanos himself (might be too much)
The Black Widow (4)
7/6 Stamina
The Blob (3)
7/6 Stamina
The Immortal Hulk (7)
No changes
The Mighty Thor (5)
No changes
The Original Human Torch (3)
6/6 Stamina. Burn Baby Burn increased to B4. No more self damage on Nova Burst
The Wrecking Crew (4)
7/6 Stamina
Thor, Hero of Midgard (6)
+1 collision damage on Have at Thee. 7 dice on Builder
Thor, Prince of Asgard (5)
No changes
Tigra (4)
7/6 Stamina
Toad (2)
Already updated
Ulik (5)
No changes
Ultimate Spider-Man (4)
6/6 Stamina
Ultron (4)
7/6 Stamina. Annalize and Annihilate becomes the same as Echos Death Dancer. Wild Trigger on Spender changed to Throw, Bleed automatic
Ultron, Metal Tyrant (5)
No changes
Ursa Major (4)
Damage reduction.
Valkyrie (3)
6/6 Stamina
Valkyrie and Elendil (4)
No changes
Venom (4)
7/7 Stamina. Movement Speed M (could be too much)
Viper (3)
6/6 Stamina. Immunity (Poison). 7 dice Spender. Reroll two dice if Defender has Poison. Unrealistic dream: Hydra leadership
Vision (4)
7/6 Stamina. Synthesis exchanged for Charge
Vulture (3)
6/6 Stamina. Range 3 on Builder
War Machine (3)
6/6 Stamina. No more self damage on Spender. To Dangerous to Ignore
Warlock (3)
6/6 Stamina
Warriors Three (3)
6/6 Stamina
Wasp (3)
6/6 Stamina. No more extract drop when transforming or placing it yourself.
Weapon X (3)
6/6 Stamina
Werewolf by Night (5)
+1 Collision damage on Pounce
Winter Soldier (3)
6/6 Stamina
Winter Soldier, Operative (4)
7/6 Stamina
Wolverine (4)
7/7 Stamina
Wong (2)
No changes
X-23 (3)
6/6 Stamina
Yondu (4)
Already updated
Thanks for reading!
And cheers from Germany 🍻
This is just a list of you destroying what you don’t like to play against. Somehow you found one of the few changes to make Phoenix worse. She needs her tokens to gain power when she flips. Your Zemo1 nerfs are a joke and would ruin Hydra. Your Shang nerf is just bitterness. This is lazy writing.
ReplyDeleteI'll give you that my idea for Phoenix was terrible as my intention was to not have her explode so easily but waking up with no power is obviously terrible.
DeleteAnd now for Zemo and Shang, characters I by the way have no issue playing against. If you ask 100 MCP players who the best splash 3 and 4 threat is 99 of them will mention these too. Which should show you that they are plain and simply not OK for their threat level. Zemo is not just better per Threat than his 4 threat version, he is straight up just better so he needs zoning down to still even be on the curve. AMG has stated multiple times that they will drop down the reliability through rerolls as it's gotten out of hand. Every single updated character has a once per turn restriction on their rerolls now. Notice how I didn't even touch Strategic Genius on him? I would not be surprised to see that gone from his card entirely while keeping the movement Speed as it is. And for Shang it's has been confirmed multiple times that One Inch Punch goes to Range 1. Loosing the Stun for no damage and no interaction, one of the most debilitating and universally conceived as unfair. Seeing how AMG handled needs recently this is extremely mild.
Calling going over 230 characters lazy is also something.
Let me ask you this, since you have been around the MCP scene for a while. Do you remember when Beta Ray Bill absolutely, definitely, irrefutably needed a nerf according to 99 of 100 MCP players? Did he ever get one? Did he ever need one? Does he need one now? Are people still complaining about BRB being totally overpowered and unfair? Nope. Why? Because the meta in which he once existed is now gone. The crisis have changed, balance passes have been made, new models have been released, and players learned to adapt. This exact same scenario is occurring now. The crisis will rotate in 45-ish days. ~195 of ~230 models will be getting changed. Sentinels are getting the models that they have been missing for 5+ years. Onslaught, Intelligencia, and X-Factor are being introduced. Mighty Avengers just got introduced. Throw changes are still being worked out by the community. The new terrain recommendations are being worked through. The entire meta is being turned on it's head. These changes, taken as a whole, will have drastic impacts on every model. What is currently viewed as over-tuned, may very well not be. Thor2 was a terror under the old crisis and at 15 threat. 15 threat went away and he likely would have been fine in the new meta. Instead AMG nerfed Thor2 so that he would underperform in the old meta, then deleted the meta in which Thor2 thrived and deleted his damage potential when they changed throws. Then, new, post-nerf Thor2 was shelved by players because he was essentially triple nerfed. This is what I am warning you of with the nerfs you are suggesting. Are you telling me that you have seriously considered, from all angles, the impact of all of the potential buffs, all of the upcoming characters, and a new crisis pool? I do not think that you have and I do not think you, nor anyone else, could. Buffing nearly the entire character pool is a defacto nerf for any unchanged characters.
DeleteDo you know why 99/100 players will tell you that Zemo1 and Shang-Chi are in need of a nerf? Because the same 10 competitive players on Reddit, Discord, and YouTube are telling those 99 players that they are. Those 99 players are going on Reddit and Discord to ask what is best and what they should splash because they are very casual players that do not understand a number of the hyper-competitive intricacies of the MCP tournament scene. Those 99/100 players do not know that Zemo1 and Shang-Chi are overpowered, they heard someone online say it and they are just repeating it. Zemo1's Master Swordsman is one of the weakest re-roll mechanics. It only works with physical attacks, power must be spent before rolling dice, and it only works within range 2. It is constantly misplayed. People use it from too far away regularly, you can watch numerous battle reports of this happening. The other once-per-turn rerolls that you are talking about are generally rerolls that can be given out to allied characters, like Prof X or Sentinels. Also, weren't Invincible Iron Man, Shuri, Arnim Zola, Adam Warlock, Kang, Blade, and Heimdall recently looked at for updates and all kept their multiple rerolls per turn? Not to mention all Inhumans. Zemo1 being better than his 4-threat version is a problem with the 4-threat version. 4-threat Zemo has one of the worst leaderships in the game and is a crap model. Fix 4-threat Zemo, don't nerf the Zemo that doesn't suck.
DeleteShang's One Inch Punch going to range 1 is fine, the reasoning is retarded, but fine. If any change is made to him then that should be the only one. The better fix is for One Inch Punch to only be able to target the target of the attack that triggered it. If you do that, he would be perfectly fine. Make that one change and leave his health alone. That is a massive nerf.
Here is my point. Most people complaining about Zemo1, Shang-Chi, and Namor are convinced that they are overpowered because competitive MCP influencers that they watch say that they are. It is a lack of imagination and time to explore other options. "Guy I watch on internet said, good = must be good." Don't forget that recently, a competent player brought Cabal led by Sin (99/100 people asked would have told you that she was unplayably bad) to tourneys and performed extremely well. Why? Because he knew what he was doing, knew the meta, and most MCP players only see the same 50 models on the table over and over.
I did not say that this write-up of yours was without effort. I am sure it took a lot of work. I said that the writing was lazy. Meaning that the thought and effort put into the suggestions was minimal. Be very, very, careful about flattening all characters to the same variations of the rules. MCP is getting dangerously close to the general life expectancy of these types of games. Tabletop miniature systems are way more fragile than many players realize. You may not believe me, but I am a fan of your work and not only recognize the work that it takes, but also genuinely appreciate it. Cheers from America.
Sorry for the late response. I was away for the weekend and have a lot of time to write the last couple of days either.
DeleteWe will simply not going to agree on Zemo but maybe more so on Shang. What we definitely do agree on is the confirmation bias in the community. I'm currently on a mission to play every character in the game at least once and from the currently released I'm only missing Shadow King, Blue Marvel, Lady Mastermind (in my current league list) and Sentinel MK4.
About not putting a lot of thought in this: for some characters definitely true but overall it's more what I expect AMG to do judging from experience and sometimes a little bit of what I believe would lift up a character.
Cheers from Germany
Do you think Defenders get a new leadership? For the number of characters, Defenders should have at least 1 potentially 2.
ReplyDeleteThat seems very very unlikely to me.
Delete